The Menendez Brothers case now UNDER REVIEW for the first time in 28 years! A new hearing will happen next month

I TOLD YA MY SERIES WAS WORTH SOMETHING!!!!

More cock next time, Ryan!

I don't care if they were molested -- that doesn't give them a license to kill when they easily could have left home and the abuse without killing anyone and gotten regular jobs and lived regular lives.

They just wanted the fucking money.

They’ve done their time. Let them out so they can do some good in the world.

If they had acted contrite and only killed the dad, they probably would be today.

But they shot their mother and acted like douchey assholes before they were arrested, spending money like Elton John on a day when he feels puffy.

[spending money like Elton John on a day when he feels puffy.]

I am so stealing this.

[quote] I don't care if they were molested -- that doesn't give them a license to kill when they easily could have left home and the abuse without killing anyone and gotten regular jobs and lived regular lives.

Child victims of sexual molestation grow up in a cage of trauma, abject fear, shame and distrust. I can't imagine what it was like to be molested by the man who was supposed to protect you and keep you safe. They were so damaged they probably felt that killing was the only way they could be free. I don't think 35 years of prison was the appropriate rehabilitation, they needed mental health counseling and pharmaceuticals. Now, after all this time in prison, they probably really are criminals.

See. Murphy wasn’t lying.

And yet they and their legions of online cat lady stans bitched and moaned about the show.

I think the most damning detail from the case is their decision to shoot the parents with shotguns, including the knees, to make it look like a mafia hit. And then after they killed them they told the police, "oh, it was probably a mafia hit!" Premeditation up the wazoo. Which precludes a defense that excuses them because they took their dad up the wazoo. Oh, wait...

In short, if the defense could have successfully persuaded either jury they killed the parents because of the 1) trauma of being molested and 2) a feeling that Jose was going to kill them because they threatened to tell about the abuse. Neither point was successfully made.

I do think Jose molested them.

IIRC, in the second trial, the judge disallowed a lot of the molestation claims they made in the first trial.

R11 in part because subsequent to the first trial there was discovery of Lyle's letters to folks coaching them about how to lie about the molestation.

R10 Two things can be true at the same time. This is the issue, people think it has to be one or the other. It can be both.

Yes, I believe they were abused and raped by their father. But yes, I do believe money played a motive in them killing him. That’s why they killed mom too. If she’s alive they still inherit NOTHING. They already contacted who they needed to contact to take them out of the will. That wasn’t made up.

They didn’t just “shoot their parents” with a shotgun. They shot them FOURTEEN TIMES. Erik actually ran out of ammo so he went back outside, refilled the gun and went back inside and shot them some more. Not even Lyle did that. You don’t shoot them 14 times with a shotgun, a few shots close range to the HEAD, and say it was “self defense”.

I stole it from Veep r6. I can’t take credit for it but it is a VERY useful.

Kim K is fighting hard for them.

I hope they don’t waste taxpayer money with a new trial. They should just real ease them for time served. If they were two girls who had been molested NYT their father they wouldn’t have spent a day in jail.

[quote] And yet they and their legions of online cat lady stans bitched and moaned about the show.

The crime, and the show, are disgusting.

[quote] They didn’t just “shoot their parents” with a shotgun. They shot them FOURTEEN TIMES.

They were angry because he molested them, she knew and did nothing. I would have shot them 15 times.

When will people learn you can’t just kill someone because they raped/molested you? And when will people learn what self defense is?

Sexual molestation of a child is akin to murder. An eye for an eye.

I could never be a murderer, no matter what abuse I suffered. And I have suffered. The most I ever did was fight back, and it worked. Maybe I was luckier than some but while I might have wished death upon an abuser, I never felt that murder would solve anything.

R20 they were no longer children. One was 21 and the other 18. They could have moved out and cut off ties with their parents

[quote] I could never be a murderer, no matter what abuse I suffered. And I have suffered. The most I ever did was fight back, and it worked. Maybe I was luckier than some but while I might have wished death upon an abuser, I never felt that murder would solve anything.

Unless your abuser was your father, you should take a seat here in the back with all the rest of us who've survived abuse.

^unaware of how extreme trauma hits.

R23 I was abused. Guess what? I didn’t murder anyone.

Wouldn’t it be funny if the Menendez Bros got out of prison and immediately went to kill Ryan Murphy?

R24 was meant for R22, who thinks the abused are to blame.

Hooray for you, R25. I was abused too and I didn't murder anyone either.

But I can empathize with any victim wanting to murder their abuser.

R7, they were young adults, not children. They could have just moved out of the damn house, but then they'd have to get a job instead of being supported by Daddy

R27 being molested doesn’t give you the right to murder. What is hard to understand? You’re 18+? LEAVE. Why wouldn’t they move out?

R29 I agree with this. I keep saying this. They were 18 and 21. MOVE OUT. But you know why they wouldn’t. They would have to actually support themselves and not live off daddy’s millions.

If they get a new trial, it will be because of Cooper Koch and Nicholas Alexander Chavez. Their portrayal of the brothers resonated with the public and made them human. Erik and Lyle should get on their knees and thank them.

Cooper said in an interview that they deserved to go to prison, but they have done their time. It's been 34 years. They have been exemplary inmates and have done so much for prison reform. They are not a threat to society.

Melinda Loveless was released a few years ago after planning and executing the kidnapping/torture/murder/burning of Shanda Sharer when she was a teenager. Some of her sympathizers said she deserved leniency (I disagree) because she was abused at home as a child. If she can be free, I think the Menendez brothers should be free.

burning*

R30, I believe I understand. I agree that no one has a right to murder another person. I am but a poor reflection of the divine grace and mercy demonstrated by my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I have sympathy for the Menendei as I do toward all the less fortunate...including you.

[quote]FOURTEEN TIMES

They had it comin'!

R35 WTF. Not murdering someone has nothing to do with Christianity. What is wrong with you?

If Gypsy Rose could get out of prison so should they

Free them. It's time.

I think the Menendez brothers’ motive wasn’t entirely abuse or entirely greed. If they cut off contact with their father, he would cut them off financially so he could claim that any accusations of abuse were lies from the bitter ingrates he disinherited. Even if his sons never spoke to him again, Jose would still have access to boys through his work in the music industry. They couldn’t stop him or bring him to justice. Walking away from an inheritance meant walking away from the only thing that probably felt like restitution.

Murder was the only option that allowed Lyle and Erik to get away from their father while still maintaining access to his money,. The murders were so brutal because it wasn’t just about money. They murdered their mother because she knew about the abuse and failed to intervene.

This isn't meant to excuse murder or suggest jail time isn’t appropriate after killing your parents, only that thirty years is likely longer than you need to spend in prison after facing such a hopeless situation.

R40 everything you posted was a reach.

R40, no, they told Dr. Oziel they killed their mom because they felt sorry for her and because it would have been hard to get their father alone to kill him

R42 idc what they said. They lied a lot. A LOT.

This is not surprising.

Commie-fornia is run by radical "woke" liberals.

They sympathize with criminals a lot.

Notice how the "wokes" in Hollywood glamorize/romanticize criminals, too.

^ Megyn Kelly

I'd much rather live in "Commiefornia" than any shithole Southern state.

[quote] If they get a new trial, it will be because of Cooper Koch and Nicholas Alexander Chavez. Their portrayal of the brothers resonated with the public and made them human. Erik and Lyle should get on their knees and thank them.

I know DLers are in live with these 2 actors.

HOWEVER ... efforts at getting a new trial have probably been in the works for YEARS. A ton of attorneys have probably worked on this. This Netflix series did not cause the movement towards getting a new trial.

R47 false.

Ryan Murphy predicts they will be free by Christmas.

They better get ready to send him flowers.

He also said he wants to make the hearing taking place in November into a special episode or two (like how Euphoria had those two special episodes for Rue and Jules), and he knows Chavez and Koch would be down to play the now older Menendez bros

What happened to the fortune they inherited? Can beneficiaries keep an inheritance if they murder their parents?

Their inheritance is in Roth IRAs, now.

Their wives must be thrilled.

[quote]I would have shot them 15 times.

Come sit her next to me. Seriously, the cell on my left is empty.

Do we think Erik and Lyle will fuck guys when they get out? Yes, I know they are married to women, but they both seem bisexual to me.

They’re never fucking getting out.

[quote]If they get a new trial, it will be because of Cooper Koch and Nicholas Alexander Chavez. Their portrayal of the brothers resonated with the public and made them human. Erik and Lyle should get on their knees and thank them.

BWAH HAHAHAHA HAAAAAA!!!

Good one R32!

*snort*

[quote]no, they told Dr. Oziel they killed their mom because they felt sorry for her and because it would have been hard to get their father alone to kill him

R42 they slaughtered their parents. Do you really think lying would be hard for them to do?

I’m getting confused by the miriad postings here (shocker).

I’m assuming there is little doubt that the brothers committed the murders, merely that the horrific extenuating circumstances should inspire the justice system to temper justice with mercy and let the brothers out of prison with time served.

Will they become famous reality TV stars if they get out of prison?

[quote]I’m assuming there is little doubt that the brothers committed the murders, merely that the horrific extenuating circumstances should inspire the justice system to temper justice with mercy and let the brothers out of prison with time served.

That’s a very stupid hill you choose to die on, R58.

They’re never fucking getting out.

r48 you are wrong, r47 is correct. Do even just a little research, and you'll discover this.

r60 "stupid hill you choose to die on"

You do not understand what this phrase means, clearly.

[Quote]Do we think Erik and Lyle will fuck guys when they get out?

I think they'll fuck each other.

If you were alive (and paying attention) when this was going on (as I was), you would know how full of shit their defense was. It was as transparent as O.J.'s.

If they were hideous looking, you guys wouldn't even GAF.

I am really curious to see what they look like now -- pics, anyone?

R62/R58 you obviously don’t.

R57, why lie in that case? When people commit murder and they confess, the murderers will always spin the situation to make themselves look sympathetic. If they killed because of abuse, they would have told Dr. Oziel that to look more sympathetic

I hope they're released before awards season so Murphy and Co. can trot them out like a couple of show ponies.

R58, what extenuating circumstances? The shit they made up? They were 18 and 21 and could have moved out of the house if they didn't like their situation. They were rich and had every advantage in life. Lyle got into Princeton because Daddy bribed the school.

[quote]Will they become famous reality TV stars if they get out of prison?

That would absolutely happen.

I also want Betty Broderick released from prison so she can get her own reality show. It can be called "Betty Gets Her Way."

Betty Broderick deserves a 2nd chance just as much as the Menendez brothers.

[quote]I hope they're released before awards season so Murphy and Co. can trot them out like a couple of show ponies.

R67 this steaming pile of shit’s not gonna win any awards let alone get nominations.

r70 Dan and Linda were asking for it, imho. Betty should've spent three years in a psych hospital and that should've been it.

[quote] I also want Betty Broderick released from prison so she can get her own reality show. It can be called "Betty Gets Her Way."

Or "Betty Is Back."

Betty Broderick is pushing 80, she should be let out.

Betty is unrepentant and I think some of her kids don't even talk to her.

That said, I think the very arrogant doctor-slash-lawyer DAN (husband) messed with the bull and got the fucking horns.

She put him through both med school AND law school, bore him several children.

Then he replaces her with a younger version of herself.

During divorce proceedings (he's an attorney, at this point), he starts "fining" her for every swear word she uses.

It's hilarious that Ryan Murphy's portrayal of Lyle gets so much criticism when this guy who has served actual time with them said they captured his essence. He also said he thoughr Lyle was being very manipulative towards Erik, that Erik was following him. He also said the brothers did confess to him that they were abused. So there's that.

r76 It's "hilarious?" It make you laugh? I don't get it.

*makes

TEAM BETTY! Dan and Linda THE DOG MEAT Kolkena had it coming.

Erik was so sassy. I can't believe he's not gay.

Betty definitely need to be let out if the joint. Maybe she could team up w Erik and Lyle on their reality show and be the mother they never had.

We had a DLer who wrote a letter to Betty and Betty did write back.

What did Betty say?

Rosie said that the charges should be reduced to manslaughter, which would make them immediately eligible for release. Can't a judge do that without a jury trial?

No, R84. Rosie has no influence on the legal system.

Not sure what the grounds for their appeal is or maybe it's habeas corpus. Depending on what's going on in the courts, here's what could happen:

1. Appeals judge decides something went wrong during trial and vacates at least one of the charges. Case gets sent back down to trial level. Prosecutor can either dump the case or recharge. If recharged, then there might be a settlement (e.g., manslaughter, time already served is your sentence). Or go to trial again on murder and roll the dice.

2. If there was an issue with sentencing, then they would re-do the sentencing hearing. Not sure if the sentence was mandatory, based on the charges.

[quote]Rosie has no influence on the legal system.

Nobody tell her that!

R57 that’s my issue. All over the internet people keep on with “but they said…” as if lying was so above them. They MURDERED their parents and then lied about it for months.

I know I am a cold-hearted bastard but I don't understand why killing your parents is any worse than killing someone else.

R61 no. It’s false. The only reason this is happening is because the show came out and the story is all people are talking about. Suddenly someone from Menudo came out claiming Jose Menendez used to rape him and allegedly has proof that Erik reached out to people via letters asking for help as he was being raped by his dad and didn’t know what to do.

The menudo person came forward with this after watching the show.

It's in the Ten Commandments: Honor thy mother and thy father.

[quote]It's in the Ten Commandments: Honor thy mother and thy father.

And?

They filed a writ of habeas corpus back in May.

Yes, now you can massacre your family. These were grown men and they lied repeatedly. They may have been abused but that’s not why they killed them. Furthermore, they could have gone to police. They weren’t trapped there. They executed their mother like a dog. They are psychopaths and are a danger to society.

[quote] Rosie said that the charges should be reduced to manslaughter

Rosie is dumb as shit. It can’t be manslaughter. They planned it and shot them in cold blood.

Rosie knows that the children she abused could happily pump her body full of bullets some day, right?

But what of the Menenendez Brothers?

R91 Wow. How’s the Easter Bunny treating you?

Where’s that bigmouth cunt Leslie Abramson in all this? I hope she found something to help her with that horrible hair.

R90 Incorrect - been in the works long before this

R99 She’s 80 and chilling.

R100 no one said it wasn’t in the works. It’s been in the works numerous times since 1996 but never initiated. It was initiated for the first time since 1996 because of the show.

Rosie was on Chris Cuomo's show last night. It looks like they could be re-sentenced by the DA, which means they could get out soon. Rosie talked to Lyle last night, and the brothers are trying not to get their hopes up because they have been let down all their lives.

Leslie Abramson tried convincing Erik to go against his brother back in the 90s but he wouldn’t budge.

Abramson was convinced if Erik testified against his brother and put the blame on him as the mastermind and basically said he was manipulated in a vulnerable state that he would get a manslaughter sentence while Lyle would get the larger sentence

I was joking (about the Ten Commandments), Rose at R92.

They're never fucking getting out.

They may get out. Weirder things have happened.

[quote] Rosie was on Chris Cuomo's show last night. It looks like they could be re-sentenced by the DA

The judge does the sentencing, not the DA.

R108 they're never getting out.

It's like the entire state of California has hybristophilia, sexual attraction to (and thus sympathy for) dangerous criminals.

Hybristophiliacs are the ones who write to prisoners, especially famous ones, and sometimes become personally involved with them. For instance, Ted Bundy and Richard Ramirez both married their #1 groupie.

Hybristophilia mainly affects women, which is not surprising that they're the ones spearheading this so-called movement.

[quote] They’ve done their time. Let them out so they can do some good in the world.

I'm sure they'll fly straight to India to care for the lepers.

[quote] the brothers are trying not to get their hopes up because they have been let down all their lives.

They are SUCH VICTIMS!

R90 The Menudo member coming out about it happened last year, in 2023. The show came out this year. The two have nothing to do with each other. The show didn't premiere then all of a sudden the Menudo guy came forward about the abuse. That would have looked suspicious as hell and probably tossed out right away. The Menudo documentary about Roy came out last year, so my guess is he came forward in 2022 or 2023. They have been working on this a long time. It has nothing to do with the show, that is just a coincidence.

R90 This is from april last year.

[quote]R103 the brothers are trying not to get their hopes up because they have been let down all their lives.

Awww...poor murderers. Rosie seems much too street wise to be this much of a sucker. Strange cause to become involved in.

They’re never getting out.

And isn't Gascon running for re-election this year? Los Angeles isn't in a let's-set-murderers-free mood these days.

They’re so guilty and the “defenses” they’ve raised are so ludicrous, it can be seen by the alien civilization on Alpha Centauri. Let them die in prison. They are a pair of sociopaths.

"They are a pair of sociopaths."

They're angels!!!!!! Leave them alooooooone!!!

Lets say they made up all of the abuse crap and they really did kill their parents for money and greed. It's been more than 30 years. They have already served a long sentence. So what if they now actually get out. Are they a danger to society? I don't believe they are. That's why I support them getting out. I do believe they were abused though, but I also believe the motive for murdering their parents was the inheritance.

Gascon seems very optimistic that they'll get out.

According to Gascon at R122, a new California law allows prosecutors to take a second look at a case "where the conviction was appropriate but the person has rehabilitated" and releasing that person may be appropriate? Isn't that called parole? How can that law apply to criminals sentenced to life without the possibility of parole? The jury decided on that sentence rather than death penalty because they had no history of violence. Sounds like they had fair trials and the California appellate courts agreed with the verdict:

[quote]Both brothers were eventually convicted on two counts of first-degree murder and conspiracy to murder; in the penalty phase of the trial, they were sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. The jury noted the abuse defense was not a factor in its deliberations but it decided not to impose the death penalty because both brothers had no prior criminal record or history of violence. However, unlike the juries in the previous trials, the jury in the penalty phase rejected the defense's theory that the brothers killed their parents out of fear and believed that they committed the killings in order to inherit their father's wealth.

[quote]On February 27, 1998, the California Court of Appeal upheld the brothers' murder convictions and, on May 28, 1998, the Supreme Court of California declined to review the case, thus allowing the decision of the appellate court to stand. Both brothers filed habeas corpus petitions with the Supreme Court of California, which were denied in 1999. Having exhausted their appeal remedies in state court, they filed separate habeas corpus petitions in the United States District Court. On March 4, 2003, a magistrate judge recommended the denial of the petitions, and the district court adopted the recommendation. The brothers then decided to appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. On September 7, 2005, a three-judge panel denied both their habeas corpus petitions

(The quotes are from Wikipedia. Forgot to add the link.)

R121 they’re never fucking getting out.

They definitely have a shot at getting out.

And I have a shot at being the next Queen of England R126. They're never fucking getting out.

Most definitely a shot at getting out

Call me when that happens, R128. I'll make a sandwich while I wait.

r129 Please learn to read: a "shot at" something doesn't equal 100% going to happen. But you knew that... maybe.

I don't know if I see this any different than Gypsy Rose.

If their father did this to them and their mother knew and did nothing (which it seems like they're focusing on proving this time) then they at 18 and 21 would have fundamentally been screwed up. They're focusing on a letter that would indicate it happened years before this case and the claims of someone else outside of the family about their father.

The thinking on this has definitely changed in the past few decades.

I do think they have a shot because if Gypsy can get out by proving her mother was a damaged person who spend her life hurting her then they can too but only if they can prove it.

All your posts R130 read as if you firmly believe it will happen.

Oh, and one more thing?

They’re never fucking getting out.

But you knew that... maybe.

R133 Definitely “a shot at” getting out.

R132 I’ve not once suggested I “firmly believe” they are getting out, but infer what you like, dear!

Former jail mate of the brothers says they were 100% abused by their father.

Why is everyone on the abuse bandwagon now and not when they were on trial?

First Scott Peterson gets a new review and now this.

Is Hollywood so bored and lacking in new ideas that they have to resurrect this shit and give it air?

[Quote] Are they a danger to society?

They shotgunned their parents. They blew off parts of their father’s body.

They … shotgunned their mother!

I would say, ok sure set them free as long as they live next to you, but you probably dream about that.

I don't think they are a danger to society.

If their parents (especially the father) did what they claimed they did, I hope they are released.

R135, how the fuck would they know? Because Lyle and Erik lied to them about it?

Yeah you have R130/R134, but infer what you like, dear!

R121, what they did was beyond gruesome. They are psychopaths like the Manson kids. They’re right where they need to be. They are a danger to society.

R140, its first degree murder, period. No.

Pamela is pissed.

She’s right though. People on TikTok’s reaction after the Murphy series is what might get them freed.

r145 I must say - your new troll redline is quite hilarious. Wow.

r145 ?

They may have been abused, but they hung around and killed their parents for the cash. Pre-meditated. They should not be free. They are of no value to society.

What’s the deal with Rosie O investing her time and energy in this case? When did this happen?

I’d like to see someone advocate for Betty Broderick’s release. However, in both of these cases, I wonder if they’d end up being more content and comfortable in prison at this point. I’ve read Betty has acclimated and has established a purpose and community in prison. I wish her well.

Rosie is bored and unemployed. Anyone who had a craft room is someone with free time.

Betty does deserve some attention. She’s not young and sexy enough.

DA Gascon won't be re-elected. What happens if the other guy is elected? Will it affect their case?

Excuse me r150! I have a craft room, and I am a VERY BUSY WORKING MOTHER!

A self-defense justification for homicide requires a reasonable fear of an imminent threat under California law. This was premeditated and planned, if ineptly. It’s first degree murder. I hope the DA doesn’t cave on this. The “boys” could simply have left home, like millions of gay kids whose families treat them like shit.

That was the big question - they were two grown men, why didn't they move out of the house?

Has anyone listened to the podcast yet? Here he is going on and on about his wife. I really thought he was gay. I'm so confused.

I do think they should serve time but ...

[quote]That was the big question - they were two grown men, why didn't they move out of the house?

They were 18 and 21.

You could argue that they may have felt like many people in abusive relationships who don't leave their spouses. Erik said they felt trapped.

But you could also argue that many of those battered spouses don't haul off and kill the other. They eventually run with help from someone who inspires them to.

Either way the DA stated they didn't disagree with the last trial.

The only change is, this time, they're taking into consideration that they may have actually been abused and it wasn't just a ploy to get off.

[quote]Former jail mate of the brothers says they were 100% abused by their father.

Why would I take the word of a jailbird for anything he couldn't even have witnessed?

Any even if they WERE abused by their father, how does that justify murdering their mother?

^^ How humans work now: if an inmate (jailbird) had revealed that they had told him they were not abused and that they killed the parents for the money - you would have accepted this as conclusive proof of their guilt.

The conclusive proof of their guilt is what they told Dr. Oziel. On tape!

They're never getting out.

I don’t follow the show but reading about the reason for extra lemon and cinnamon-yike! Must have been a brutal upbringing. I fantasized about sucking my dad’s cock but if he actually forced me to do it!-that’s different-that’s trauma.

Didn’t the father have so many connections that no matter where the boys went or who they asked for help the father had the upper hand. Father may have been planning to have the boys killed to keep abuse secret-he could afford to have them carefully killed by hit men and then play dumb.

One article said they had sex with each other in the woods many years before-anymore on that one? I still don't know which is Erik or Lyle or which one is gay or bi or straight-confused as they are???

They’re never getting out.

I know-I know- They're not getting out…

They definitely have a shot at getting out. I hope not, but they have a shot at it for sure.

I don't know if this video of Rosie and some lawyer on the Chris Cuomo show was posted, but I found it very interesting. I really had no idea about the case.

I just listened to the first few seconds of that video and hold on... the letter Erik wrote to the cousin was only eight days before the murders? I assumed it was years ago when he was a little kid. That simply sounds like a possible set-up for an alibi. They're actually re-opening the case due to that?

(Correction, it was eight months before the murders, not eight days. But that's still within a time frame that leaves open the possibility he wrote it to shape a future alibi. Again, I assumed he wrote it years before them murders.)

^ Is there even any evidence that he even wrote it before the murders? His aunt (who badmouthed Jose and Kitty on the stand to defend the brothers) "found" the letter

If they prove Erik wrote the letter, then why didn't he tell an adult relative such as the aunt and ask for advice or help in reporting the abuse? If he (allegedly) so freely talked about it with his cousin, why stop there instead of telling an older relative who could help him? Or, since he was a legal adult at that point, he could have just gone to the police on his own. The answer seems to be, of course, what the jury decided...that the brothers wanted the money and murdered due to greed.

r171 I'm not defending the murderers in any way, but I was molested as a child and told no one until I was an adult. It was a very strange thing - I was smart, independent, etc. but something about that one aspect of my life felt paralyzing. I hid it very carefully (regrettably).

R172,

❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

Oh just let em out-35 years is long enough.

Yes,they need the space for ‘’Senator’’ BOB MENENDEZ (sentencing in January!)

If they do get out- they’re not going to rush right out and vote for Trump are they?