Italy bans surrogacy

FAIL, OP!

Surrogacy is kind of creepy. I’ve never been able to decide how I feel about it entirely.

I feel the same way but I have no desire to be a parent @R2. My coworker who I absolutely hate went through the surrogacy process with his husband. It was was weird how he kept us updated to the birth

[QUOTE]Surrogacy is kind of creepy. I’ve never been able to decide how I feel about it entirely.

Why does a gay man even have a fucking "feeling" about a woman's ovaries, you stupid, irrational cunt?

HA!

Enjoy your fascist Nazi female Hitler leader, Italy!

You get exactly what you deserve.

Stupid right-wing cunts.

Agree r2

It’s completely out of hand with rich women not wanting the burden of carrying and delivering an baby. It wouldn’t surprise m if they find out the whole process is harmful to infants

The stories from Ukraine about the poor Western couples unable to pick up their babies after Russia invaded was appalling. So many of the stories ignored the pregnant women who would remain in Ukraine.

Commercial surrogacy is deeply unethical but I’m more relaxed about a woman carrying a baby for someone who will include her in the child’s upbringing.

Too many Right Wingers on this thread!

^Too many on the DL!!!

[quote]Why does a gay man even have a fucking "feeling" about a woman's ovaries, you stupid, irrational cunt?

lol

R7 I should think most straight women are not going to allow a mommy 2. I know two gay couples who have used a surrogate. The surrogates were sent on their way and they have no communication although both couples have a nanny who is primarily raising the kids (both had a set of twins) I believe surrogates have to be mothers already, both surrogate used were poor single mothers from abroad. I admit to feeling very conflicted because the women would not do this if they didn't need the money but I can also understand why it is the only option for most. How many first world women would agree to carry a child for free or even for a reasonable payment. The exceptions would prove the rule.

Isn't surrogacy illegal in the UK? (Though couples seek overseas surrogates)

'Surrogacy is legal in the UK, but if you make a surrogacy agreement it cannot be enforced by the law.'

'The surrogate (and her spouse) will initially be the legal parents of the child, and the intended parent/s will need to make a post-birth court application (with everyone’s agreement) to transfer parenthood to them.'

Sounds very messy but I cannot imagine many British women are willing surrogates which pushed people overseas.

I think it’s wonderful

Surrogates have been left holding the baby when it turns out to have some medical problem like Down Syndrome and the new parents fuck off back to their own country.

[quote] Surrogates have been left holding the baby when it turns out to have some medical problem like Down Syndrome and the new parents fuck off back to their own country.

Hey, you break it, you buy it.

Absolutely NO RETURNS!

[quote]Italy bans surrogacy

It's been illegal in Italy since 2004.

Illegal in France since 1991.

I find it creepy and somehow not so ethical.

I think babies deserve a mother, and no weirdo DLers, I am not a Republican, or Trumper of any kind. I just think the whole "Privileged white gays renting a womb" is problematic.

^ But "privileged black, Asian or Hispanic gays renting a womb " is beside the point right?

In other words, gay couples in Italy can forget about ever becoming fathers through surrogacy.

They can go to India or somewhere to rent a womb

R20 Yep. And they can't in Germany or France either.

BTW: In Germany it’s a criminal offence for doctors who help someone with surrogacy. This also includes egg donation from one woman to another for any reason.

It’s not only gay couples who do surrogacy. Won’t someone think of the actresses?

Surrogacy needs to be banned in the US.

[quote] Privileged white gays renting a womb" is problematic.

There are probably more wealthy wives doing it than gay men. At least with gay men I understand since at one time adoption wasn’t even an option in most cases. Not sure how it is now.

Unless you’re a woman being asked to carry a child for someone else, you’re feelings about it amount to a pile of dog shit.

honey lets grow another baby im getting tired of this one 👼🏻

So cute to see all of you trying to be experts on European policy.

ONLY r28's opinions are allowed!

He has spoken!

Creepers on this thread need to MIND THEIR OWN DAMN BUSINESS.

Being pro-choice doesn't just mean supporting a woman's choice NOT to give birth, but also her decision to grow a baby for someone else. It's HER uterus, not yours. No one is being exploited, and the woman can legally change her mind at any point in the process.

And what's this homophobic bullshit about gay men not being fit to raise a baby without a mother present? What is this, Fox & Friends?

These self-loathing Boomers think that gays having kids is for Instagram trophy child purposes only.

Gay men being parents is fine - the moral issues of paying a woman to become pregnant and deliver a baby (a significant health risk for her) is questionable.

[quote] I find it creepy and somehow not so ethical. I think babies deserve a mother, and no weirdo DLers, I am not a Republican, or Trumper of any kind.

You are, retard.

R32, women should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies. Keep out.

[quote]Homosexuality needs to be banned in the US.

Why is ultra-liberal Europe against surrogacy?

Remember Baby M?

[quote] Why is ultra-liberal Europe against surrogacy?

Why is ultra capitalist America so pro surrogacy when it hasn’t sorted out abortion or maternity rights?

Although surrogacy is sometimes a paid service, I think that in the case of gay men, they often have sympathetic female friends who are willing to go through the pregnancy for them (with perhaps the special foods, vitamins, and of course medical costs covered by the gay couple). I do think that the process should be regulated, because there is the potential for abuse in the process (either the surrogate backs out of the agreement after taking the money, or the people requesting it back out without fully covering the medical costs the host mother has incurred). There are a many different reasons for going through it, including the fact that gay men cannot conceive or deliver a child, and many many women are infertile. I think outlawing the process is draconian, when regulation would solve the abuses.

r28 Why not?? Europeans think they are experts on USA anything although only 10% of Europeans travel outside of Europe.

r38 Why are you diverting attention?? Why are we never allowed to criticize Europe without people diverting?

r36 Surrogacy is NOT progressive. That said I think it is funny that most of progressive Europe didn't have gay adoption until they passed gay marriage. Even in the US south gay people and straight people could adopt without marriage.

I'm pretty sure that gay people could adopt before same-sex marriage was passed, r42, at least in individual countries. The point of same-sex marriage is that it means same-sex couples can adopt together as a couple as they are in a legally binding relationship that means they can both have a legally binding relationship to the child (and, prior to same-sex marriage, they could adopt in certain countries with civil partnerships).

Same sex adoption did not become legal in all 50 states in the US until the year 2016, so it's not as though the US has been on the forefront of progressivism on this issue. Moreover, many adoptions are handled through religious agencies, such as Catholic Charities, and some of them are very hostile towards gay people. The current Supreme Court seems very inclined to protect the rights of religious agencies to flout laws designed to give rights to LGBT people, including the right to adopt.

[quote] [R38] Why are you diverting attention?? Why are we never allowed to criticize Europe without people diverting?

What was diverting? The European countries which restricts surrogacy have generally progressive laws when it comes to abortion and maternity rights.

Despite 90% of surrogacy being for heterosexual couples surrogacy is increasingly being presented as a men’s rights issue, not a women’s rights issue, because men want to pay someone to gestate their offspring.

So ‘liberal’ Europe isn’t adopting the ultra capitalist model of the US where you can purchase anything at the right price, including a baby.

R45 progressives are also against reproduction, due to increasing world population, which is why they're pro-abortion and anti-surrogacy.

R8 and R9 Not wanting (mostly poor) women to sell their bodies for surrogacy is now right-wing? It‘s not as if a baby plops out and you say „whoops, there you have it!“ and go about your day. Fuck this. Surrogacy for money is evil, no matter who pays. I don‘t care if it‘s some rich cunt or princess or some entitled gay couple.

[quote] I think that in the case of gay men, they often have sympathetic female friends who are willing to go through the pregnancy for them (with perhaps the special foods, vitamins, and of course medical costs covered by the gay couple). I do think that the process should be regulate

Often? Surely not. Exceedingly rare I should think.

Italy is going through a serious population bust. This doesn’t make any sense

r33 is against binary thinking, yet anyone who disagrees with him is a Trump supporter.

Your parents convincing you that you were the smartest boy in the world did you no favors.

Italy is currently pulling their shit together regardless of population, and regardless of political ideology.

R4 seems super fun. Great at dinner parties. Open to the thoughts of others. Working through the Tourette’s. Well done.

R49 - exactly. Most surrogacies are straight couples with issues carrying a baby to term. Italy already has a very low birth rate - what do they expect people to do? With a low birth rate, you're not going to have a ton of kids around to adopt either.

And the post above about surrogates being left with babies with conditions - please cite a source. Otherwise you're just making shit up - they can do a lot of genetic and other testing to determine the health and viability of the pregnancy.

This is just right-wing bullshit. Italy is still a backwards conservative country in a lot of ways primarily due to Catholic Church.

What was the reason to bring this legislation to pass? Just seems like a 'feel good' for Nazi Meloni. This isn't going to increase the birth rate.

REMEMBER - Meloni also put into law that the gay and lesbian partners can not be registered as parents, only the biological parent. Also, single women and gays/lesbians are not allowed access to reproduction treatments.

r43 In many you could not in many European countries. France and Italy are an example.

It’s egotistical to want a made to order baby with one’s own genes (in the situation where the thing is birthed by someone other than the person who is going to raise them). People should be steered toward adoption.

R55 - gays can't adopt in Italy - nor in many countries of the world and it's very difficult even in the States. Adoption is not easy even for straight couples.

Even if a G/L couple DID adopt a baby, one of the partners would not be registered as a parent in Italy - see the link above.

You act like there's tons of other routes - there aren't. They just don't want G/L to have kids. And they don't want Italian straight people to have any kids outside of the old-school traditional Italian family.

It's 2024 for crying out loud. Nobody - particularly Italian women and their below sustaining birth rates - are going back 50 years to Catholic ways of having multiple babies and being stuck at home.

Nonsense.

Adoption is the way to go.

R57 you can never love somebody else's child the way you love your own.

r5 surrogacy is also banned in France and Germany.

R57 just spewing away his thoughts again without considering that gays/lesbians cannot adopt in Italy, nor can single women or men.

Adoption is in principle permitted only to married couples who must be of the opposite sex.

But R57 will just say ADOPTION ADOPTION like an idiot again.

[quote][R28] Why not?? Europeans think they are experts on USA anything although only 10% of Europeans travel outside of Europe.

Also, it's rich that Europeans make fun of Americans for not knowing all the Euro countries and their respective capitals, but that would be like asking Europeans to know all the 50 states/capitals, since the U.S. and Europe are roughly the same size, and a lot of Euro countries are as big as U.S. states.

Many Europeans themselves can't name all of the Euro countries and capitals.

They can't even decide on how many countries there are in Europe -- 44, 50, 51?

Everything in Italy is corrupt, Europeans are corrupt as Americans are, they just hide it better.

R60, did you have a bad experience with adoption in your life that has made you so virulently anti-adoption?

R61, Americans don't have to know the names of all European capitals or countries. What they should try to wrap their heads around, however, is the fact that different European countries have different laws. So, trying to generalise from Italy to all European countries and then claiming all Europe is against surrogacy is kinda dumb.

[quote]The European countries which restricts surrogacy have generally progressive laws when it comes to abortion and maternity rights.

Ah yes Maternity rights.

I wish some of you would take a minute to read about maternity rights in Italy. For mothers and fathers.

Compare it to the USA:

[quote]So, trying to generalise from Italy to all European countries and then claiming all Europe is against surrogacy is kinda dumb.

No, you're kinda dumb.

Surrogacy map: red = banned.

And note: commercial surrogacy is banned in ALL of the EU.

You all are completely missing the point on why this is such a terrible law.

While a number of countries ban surrogacy, this is the first time parents are threatened with jail time if they pursue it OUTSIDE the country. Gay couples from Europe often pursued surrogacy in the US, South America, and Asia. They never had problems bringing their kids back and claiming them as their own in the EU. This is the ONLY time, they can be jailed for doing that. We all predicted this when Meloni became PM because she has a fascist background and hates LGBT.

Yes, people claim this affects both gay and straight couples, BUT straights can adopt in Italy while gays cannot. Also, if they try, straights can use a surrogate outside and claim they had the baby themselves--avoiding penalties.

Surrogacy is a contract between adults. To claim women can't determine for themselves what they can do with their own bodies is the same with the abortion argument.

Government--Get the fuck out

[quote]While a number of countries ban surrogacy, this is the first time parents are threatened with jail time if they pursue it OUTSIDE the country.

It is called extraterritorial jurisdiction. It also exists in the US: "US law applies to US citizens living and working abroad, and the US can prosecute for crimes committed overseas even if they are legal in the other country. This is known as extraterritorial jurisdiction. he US can also extradite people from other countries to prosecute them for crimes committed there. "

Surrogacy is a crime in Italy. That does not make it legal for Italian citizens to commit the crime in another country.

R67 is correct and the person or persons who keep saying surrogacy is forbidden in other european countries such as france and germany is being disingenuous. Such countries forbid surrogacy but accept and recognize children born out of surrogacy abroad.

Italy goes out of its way to expressly forbid this. Naturally it mostly affects gay men who cant claim the child is theirs and/or adopt them.

With all the emphasis and investment in STEM one would think someone would have already invented an artificial womb to gestate an embryo into a baby. I’m surprised Elon Musk isn’t all over this.

You're dumb r66 if you think that Italy legislates for the whole of Europe. And your map isn't even all red.

What you're saying then, r68, is that there should be absolutely no regulation of surrogacy at all?

R72 What are you talking about? No one has claimed that Italy legislates for the whole of Europe. BTW the red (banned) covers the vast majority of Europe.

[quote]Surrogacy is a contract between adults. To claim women can't determine for themselves what they can do with their own bodies is the same with the abortion argument.

If being a surrogate is effectively entering into an employment contract then the employee should be protected by all the relevant health and safety regulations. How many other "jobs" are there which leave the employee with long term health conditions as a result of it?

And the contract ultimately results in the purchase of a human being.

Fratelli d'Italia's argument that surrogacy "reduces women to baby-making machines" is hypocritical to say the least.

Anyone ever knew a surrogate that changed their mind? There is an absolute emotional connection a woman makes with her baby; it is in our DNA. Just curious if anyone knew personally of any horror stories. I know it’s so Law & Orderish.

Well changed her* mind I should say.

r61 A better example would be Europeans not knowing how many Brazilian states there is(assuming they even know Brazil has that), naming the capitols and locations of south American and African countries. They can't, yet they are fixated on Americans being ignorant. They know a lot about other Europeans due to the short distance and ease of travel. They are pig ignorant about any continent. It is really racism. Ask them to point Benin, Togo, and Suriname and they won't know or care. I remember a European mocking an American not knowing which European nations were in the EU, but he/she didn't know which countries are in the Asian Union/ASEAN and other equivalents. They conflate pan-europeanism with being "global."

I'm one of two dads of a daughter born thru surrogacy, she's now a smart and hilarious and high energy 1st grader and I'm so grateful every day.

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Misinformation shooting off in like eleven different directions. I don't even know where to begin. Misinformation about the realities of infant and child adoption (i.e. "gays should just adopt if they want a baby") in 2024.. you have no idea. Misinformation about how surrogacy is even done; surrogacy today is gestational; there is no birth mother giving up her own child. One woman is the egg donor; eggs are retrieved and fertilized with the chosen sperm donor's sperm, developed into 5 day old embryos, thoroughly genetically tested, flash frozen, and implanted into a woman who wants to be a paid surrogate and has passed the medical clearances (most notably, has to have carried a fetus to full term and given healthy birth at least once). She receives hormone treatments that simulate what a pregnant woman's own body would be doing in those first few weeks, and with luck, the embryo attaches well to the uterus and will develop into a baby... that is not her baby, and she is relationally and psychologically clear about that.

We have stayed in touch with our surrogate, a married mom up in the Pacific Northwest, and she's an awesome person. She and her husband were able to change their lives and erase a lot of their household debt with the $35K she earned from us, and we gave her extra because she needed a C section and lost more work time than expected. They were able to finally start saving to buy a small home instead of rent. And she remains very glad that she helped us become a two-dad family.

Again it can be an ethical minefield and must be regulated, but when surrogacy goes well, it feels like such a miracle and a blessing. And I know so many other similar stories from other gay dads across our network of friends and acquaintances. Each country is free to rule how they want, but I've got to speak up here from personal experience.

We used this agency and they are excellent. These people are extremely skilled, thoughtful and caring. There are other good US surrogacy agencies out there. I know there may be other contradictory anecdotes and stories in the world, but I had to share mine. Thanks.

Meant to post link at R80 -- this was our agency. Wonderful people.

[quote] the embryo attaches well to the uterus and will develop into a baby... that is not her baby

No. You are wrong. It is her baby.

r64 We are well aware that every European country has separate laws-- although the EU does have union wide power. Anyways, most European countries DO have heavy restrictions on surrogacy. We can read in the USA and we see the maps of how surrogacy is dealt with. Also Italy is a very wealthy, populous, and important country in Europe so there laws is nothing to ignore. We are not talking about Monaco. This has wider implications.

Side note: I don't support surrogacy as it is unethical and is sort of like trafficking.

[quote]Misinformation about how surrogacy is even done; surrogacy today is gestational; there is no birth mother giving up her own child.

But it is HER baby. You might have used a laboratory to ensure the baby has no DNA match to the birth mother, but the baby grew inside her, fed off her and was delivered by her.

[quote]and we gave her extra because she needed a C section and lost more work time than expected.

She suffered health complications as a result of being hired for a job by you. Do your decorators, gardeners, car mechanics or dentists get put at similar risk when they provide you with a service?

I'm happy for you and your family and I'm sure you need to convince yourself that everyone is doing it for altruistic reasons, but you bought a baby.

R82 and R84, surrogates and intended parents like us enter into a thorough legal process with a tome of documentation as to whose baby she is carrying. She bears zero responsibility for the baby after birth and we bear 100%. Our names are on our daughter's birth certificate.

Again it was a deeply positive experience for all of us. I'll decline to engage with the attack lines dressed up as "I'm happy for you".

R74, as noted above even in European countries where surrogacy is not permitted the actual details of the legislation differs. Italy's law is unique to Italy. A country like Ukraine offers surrogacy on an industrial level, but same-sex couples and single people are banned.

On a global level, the US is quite unique in its lenient attitude towards surrogacy. In fact, the surrogacy laws in the US are most similar to those in Russia and Iran.

How much did you pay her, r85?

R87... $35K directly, and more to the agency that matched us and managed the relationship until birth.

p.s. and another $7K to help her out in the month or two after unexpected C section.

It's always seemed to me that deeply religious countries, especially Catholic and Muslim, should be very opposed to surrogacy and IVF as much as they are opposed to abortion - they're two sides of the same coin in my mind.

I'm not surprised that very catholic Italy banned surrogacy. France bans paternity tests in order to "preserve" the family - yeah. More like they ban paternity tests so horny old men can get away with fathering kids without having to pay for them.

Cheap for renting a womb, r88.

[quote]I'm not surprised that very catholic Italy banned surrogacy.

Yet abortion is performed free of charge and in all regions in Italy.

Meanwhile abortion is outright banned in 14 States in the US and even where it is legal insurance coverage is not guaranteed.

[quote] It is called extraterritorial jurisdiction. It also exists in the US: "US law applies to US citizens living and working abroad, and the US can prosecute for crimes committed overseas even if they are legal in the other country. This is known as extraterritorial jurisdiction. he US can also extradite people from other countries to prosecute them for crimes committed there. " Surrogacy is a crime in Italy. That does not make it legal for Italian citizens to commit the crime in another country.

And yes, it is the ONLY country in Europe where it is actually considered a crime. While it is banned in other countries, no other country considers it a punishable crime in the same fashion. This was targeted specifically at LGBT people, as Meloni has always made it clear that she wanted to exclude LGBT from raising kids.

[quote] If being a surrogate is effectively entering into an employment contract then the employee should be protected by all the relevant health and safety regulations. How many other "jobs" are there which leave the employee with long term health conditions as a result of it? And the contract ultimately results in the purchase of a human being.

There are far more long term health conditions from working in a coal mine, meat processing plant, or the military than having a baby. Should be ban all those professions too?

In fact a human being a not being purchased. Funds can only be given to support the pregnancy--food, clothing, heathcare, etc.

[quote]While it is banned in other countries, no other country considers it a punishable crime in the same fashion.

Germany: In Germany, surrogacy is illegal and is punishable by fines and imprisonment for those involved in the process: Mediators: Can be prosecuted for bringing together intended parents and surrogates Medical practitioners: Can be imprisoned for up to three years for assisting with surrogacy Intended parents: Can be punished for bringing together people for surrogacy

[quote]I'm not surprised that very catholic Italy banned surrogacy.

Italy isn't nearly as Catholic as it used to be. Same with Ireland.

Spain: Article 221 of the Spanish Penal Code also establishes that persons who, through economic compensation, transfer a child to another person without a parental relationship, avoiding the legal procedures of guardianship, placement or adoption, in order to establish a similar link to paternity, will be punished by imprisonment of one to five years and the inability to exercise parental rights, guardianship or custody for a period of four to ten years (part 1), the same sanction being applied to the person who receives the child as a parent.

In Ireland it was legal for a woman to have a penis before it was legal for a woman to have an abortion.

[quote]There are far more long term health conditions from working in a coal mine, meat processing plant, or the military than having a baby. Should be ban all those professions too?

Manual labour is regulated heavily, or at least it should be, and the employers are liable to face fines or criminal prosecutions if their staff are hurt in the course of their duties.

The military is a different subject but those in charge can face criminal proceedings if negligence is established in soldiers being harmed in the course of their duties.

[quote]In fact a human being a not being purchased. Funds can only be given to support the pregnancy--food, clothing, heathcare, etc

Yeah, just like when men pay prostitutes, they're not paying for the sex, they're paying for the women's time.

If the woman changes her mind and keeps the baby, she wouldn't be expected to give the money back?

If a woman can't be trusted to so whatever she wants with her womb, how can we trust her with abortion?

[quote] Germany: In Germany, surrogacy is illegal and is punishable by fines and imprisonment for those involved in the process: Mediators: Can be prosecuted for bringing together intended parents and surrogates Medical practitioners: Can be imprisoned for up to three years for assisting with surrogacy Intended parents: Can be punished for bringing together people for surrogacy.

But Germany accepts kids born of surrogacy outside the country and doesn't imprison their parents, unlike Italy.

"As it is not legally possible to have a child with the help of a surrogate mother in Germany, many couples travel abroad. Particularly popular destinations for surrogacy are Greece, the USA, Mexico, Canada, and Georgia. The birth certificate issued abroad still needs to be recognised in Germany."

r92 And only up to 3 months (before the over turning of roe v wade some southern states had it longer than that) and very hard to actually find doctors who will do it. But yes it is free because there health care system is free at point of use like the UK and Spain.

www.edition.cnn.com/interactive/2019/05/europe/italy-abortion-intl/

[quote] If the woman changes her mind and keeps the baby, she wouldn't be expected to give the money back?

Which is why lawyers try to assure the woman who gives birth has little claim to keeping the child. If the egg and sperm are from other people, can she be considered the mother?

R99, again, a gestational surrogate has zero biological relationship to the baby she is carrying. She receives an implanted embryo that wasn't hers. With luck, she carries the embryo all the way to delivery of a newborn infant.

And she and the intended parents sign a raft of legal documentation in advance, as to the legal parentage of the fetus/baby she will carry. This is done not only to protect the parents but also in significant part to protect *her* from post-birth responsibility in case *they* were to hypothetically change their mind.

r98 Ireland is a very different country now.

[quote] Spain: Article 221 of the Spanish Penal Code also establishes that persons who, through economic compensation, transfer a child to another person without a parental relationship, avoiding the legal procedures of guardianship, placement or adoption, in order to establish a similar link to paternity, will be punished by imprisonment of one to five years and the inability to exercise parental rights, guardianship or custody for a period of four to ten years (part 1), the same sanction being applied to the person who receives the child as a parent.

But Spain accepts the children born of surrogacy outside the country. Italy will jail parents who have kids through surrogacy outside the country.

[quote] Ireland is a very different country now.

because the Catholic Church literally fucked its way through Ireland's children

Surrogacy is legal in the US. I.e. "we need more white babies!"

[quote] The military is a different subject but those in charge can face criminal proceedings if negligence is established in soldiers being harmed in the course of their duties

Who has faced criminal proceedings for agent orange, psychedelics experiments, burn pits? Un no one.

[quote][R98] Ireland is a very different country now.

Irish women are still travelling to England for terminations.

Let women make their own decisions about their bodies. Stop mansplaining what is discriminatory and exploitative. As if men care about any other aspect of women's lives that are discriminatory and exploitative.

Women have children for other people for various reasons: the money, access to healthcare, empathy for gays and women who can't have children, empathy for relatives who can't have children, etc, etc, etc. Sure there are poor women who see this as a way to a better life. Since you're not offering them a replacement, why deny them this opportunity to improve their lot in life?

Poor men do it all the time by joining the military. No one says it's exploitative when it most certainly is.

Governments need to stop being big brother and butt out of decisions that are made between adults.

[quote][R99], again, a gestational surrogate has zero biological relationship to the baby she is carrying. She receives an implanted embryo that wasn't hers. With luck, she carries the embryo all the way to delivery of a newborn infant.

But the above poster said the woman isn't paid for *the baby*, the woman is given expenses for clothes, food and healthcare.

So if the woman chooses not to hand over the baby when the baby is delivered, the lawyers jump in and demand that the woman gives up the baby, because that's clearly what the money paid for.

A baby is being purchased.

R106 Italian law applies to Italian citizens even if they are outside of the country. Italy can prosecute for crimes committed overseas even if they are legal in the other country.

If that bothers you, don't become an Italian citizen.

[quote] So if the woman chooses not to hand over the baby when the baby is delivered, the lawyers jump in and demand that the woman gives up the baby, because that's clearly what the money paid for. A baby is being purchased.

So? You purchase a baby when you adopt one. You purchase a baby when you take a woman out for a date and then shower her with gifts to marry her and keep her happy.

This law is focused specifically on LGBT because Meloni hates gays. It has less to do with catholic ideology and more to do with her being a fascist and doing the time-honored scapegoating of LGBT

I’m agnostic on commercial surrogacy and certainly uncomfortable with it being done through brokers in the developing world , but it’s sort of funny that men working on oil rigs is proof that men are willing to do gruelling physical work at risk to themselves and therefore need to make more than women. Whereas, we’re all horrified at the notion of a woman doing the physically gruelling and risky work of giving birth to a baby for pay (in fact, we prefer for her to become MORE economically dependent on a man because of it!), when having babies in exchange for food, shelter and “a good name” is the only job we let women have for thousands of years.

Thank you, R111. Not to mention, pro forced-birth advocates make the same argument about women who choose to have abortions. They say that no matter how consensual it was on the woman's part, and no matter how much she argues that it was the best possible choice for her, it will always be inherently traumatizing and even medically compromising and therefore it's sick and cruel to even let her think it will be anything but life-destroying and so she shouldn't even be given the choice in the first place.

I don't care how much you champion abortion rights--if you're pro surrogacy bans, you're NOT pro choice. Pro choice means letting women make any goddamn decision they want to when it comes to their uterus--putting a fetus in, taking a fetus out, putting someone else's fetus in, removing the whole damn thing...whatever. It's THEIR body, and NOT the government's to regulate.

R63 - no idiot - the point at hand is that gays and lesbians CAN NOT ADOPT in Italy! God - how stupid are you?

What's ironic - Meloni talks about traditional family values and how kids need a father and a mother.

Guess who's an unmarried single mother? Yep - THIS BITCH. And she's also 'against feminism but a supporter of women's rights'.

[quote] but the baby grew inside her, fed off her

Same could be said of a tumor.

Meloni is just going the way of Orban and Putin.

"Traditional" just means anti gay. Typical Fascist fare. Blame all problems on gays and lemming will be easily distracted.

Whether the right or left was in power, Meloni or no Meloni, adoption has NEVER been legal for gay couples in Italy.

If that bothers you, stay away from Italy.

Different countries have different cultures.

Why not just adopt ME?

Learn how to post a link, OP. It goes in the box that says Web Site Link, above the green Post button.

Darfur Orphan, haven't you aged out of the system yet?

Jesus Christ, these people wouldn’t even let Mary rent a room at the Inn

Mary, the 1st surrogate/influencer

[quote]Why not just adopt ME?—Darfur Orphan

It would be better to do that than unnecessarily add another person on the planet for selfish reasons.

[quote]I don't care how much you champion abortion rights--if you're pro surrogacy bans, you're NOT pro choice. Pro choice means letting women make any goddamn decision they want to when it comes to their uterus--putting a fetus in, taking a fetus out, putting someone else's fetus in, removing the whole damn thing...whatever. It's THEIR body, and NOT the government's to regulate.

Selling the fetus?

[quote] I don't care how much you champion abortion rights--if you're pro surrogacy bans, you're NOT pro choice. Pro choice means letting women make any goddamn decision they want to when it comes to their uterus--putting a fetus in, taking a fetus out, putting someone else's fetus in, removing the whole damn thing...whatever. It's THEIR body, and NOT the government's to regulate.

It might be challenging to catch and keep a high quality man with that kind of zealotry.

[quote]I just think the whole "Privileged white gays renting a womb" is problematic.

So my former boss who was a CEO and also a white woman who did this because she didn't want to be burdened with pregnancy and more than enough cash to pay a young woman desperate for cash is OK in your book?

[quote] So my former boss who was a CEO and also a white woman who did this because she didn't want to be burdened with pregnancy and more than enough cash to pay a young woman desperate for cash is OK in your book?

I’m not the poster you’re replying to but this attitude is one of the most appalling.

Hiring another human because it’s inconvenient to be pregnant yourself is such a selfish thing to do.

Gay male couples and straight couples with fertility problems have my sympathy but it’s still hiring a woman.

Yes R132. As long as she wasn't forced to do it. And also, it's not like men haven't been doing it for millennia.

But no one says a thing when a straight wealthy couple does this. Not a word.

Yes, they do

r132, I highly doubt your CEO shared that information with you.

I’m kicking all facists maga red-hat fools right in the cuntbone

R132 It's "okay" for a woman do use (or not use) her uterus any goddamn way she pleases. She's a grown, consenting adult, and it's disgustingly infantalizing for anyone to insist FOR her that she's being exploited instead of trusting her to know what the best choice is for her, her body, and her life.

Her fertility choices have ZERO effect on you, and this could not be any less your problem or your lane.

^*to use

There’s also age & preexisting conditions. This has “literally” been a lifeline for all sorts of situations. Why is this being targeted at wealthy white women and gay men?

Men get paid for donating sperm. Women who donate eggs get paid a great deal more (because of how much more invasive it is). Do you find that to be "creepy" and "exploitative"? It costs money for nearly every fertility treatment, particularly IVF, and they are certainly cost-prohibitive in terms of who can afford to use them. Is it "sick" or "weird" that single women with money can afford to use those services and get pregnant on their own later in life because it just didn't work out the traditional way or because her fertility is challenged?

Guess what? Adoptions, even if agencies agree you'd make a "suitable" parent, can cost as much as $75,000 and take years of list-waiting. But being considered "suitable" can often exclude single women who aren't terrifically wealthy, and obviously gay couples (especially if they too are not terrifically wealthy).

People act as if there's just a baby store on every corner and how selfish are people to want to create a whole new baby when they could just swing by said baby store and pick up a ready-made one, easy-peasy. It's just so remarkably clueless.

[quote]The point of same-sex marriage is that it means same-sex couples can adopt together

The point of equal rights to marriage is to ensure fair distribution of property and assets if someone is to die and to ensure the spouse and not the person’s homophobic fucktard family is able to make medical decisions.

[quote]I highly doubt your CEO shared that information with you.

R137, it's a small company, around 40 people, everyone socializes together, not like you can hide suddenly having a child. Especially when breedrs love to parade their rug rats around the office like a new car. Why would you have "doubts" you sound like an incel. Do you never talk to your co-works outside the office?

[quote]The point of equal rights to marriage is to ensure fair distribution of property and assets if someone is to die and to ensure the spouse and not the person’s homophobic fucktard family is able to make medical decisions.

^ Those are rights all covered in Italy in civil unions.